You are hereLOBV weighs in on stuff and things.
LOBV weighs in on stuff and things.
Rob D'Amico replied to the crazy email thread with his opinion on things earlier this afternoon, and sent it to the same list of people that I sent my response to Art Acevedo to, plus a few extras. He goes beyond Ye Olde Critical Mass Debate, and focuses on the enforcement issues we experienced:
Here's my perspective. CM is now a "happening" and it's going to happen no matter what. Nothing is going to stop it. And as Jason mentions, there is no leadership, so it's difficult for cyclist to control.
So it's pointless to debate the merits of the ride itself or how it affects public perception of bicyclists. With that in mind, I think all that the bicycling community can reasonably ask for is some balance in enforcement. With the following to consider:
1) No one should go to jail on these rides, particularly with the recent APD tool of the Class B misdemeanor for obstructing traffic. The only reason someone should go to jail is for overly aggressive behavior to others/officers or failure to comply with reasonable requests from officers after repeated requests.
2) While the chief has stated before that he won't instruct his officers not to enforce the law, I believe you should instruct them to give out citations as a last resort and to use citations rather than arrests. If the arrests continue, there will be a backlash and confrontations, just as it happened about 8 years ago when riders were randomly arrested and cited. (Back then, the favorite APD tactic was to wait until a rider started to pass two other riders, then rush in charge them with more than two abreast.) It just meant a lot of wasted time and resources for APD with court cases against cyclists that ultimately were dropped. Meanwhile CM continued every last Friday.
While CM might not be "organized," the bicycling community and its advocates are now much more organized than a decade ago, and I envision lawsuits, OPM complaints, videographers chronicling APD behavior, and unfortunately, a more aggressive attitude from CM participants to block traffic intentionally as a result of continuing arrests. When you feel like it's a war out there, you act like a soldier.
3) Even if a bicyclist isn't obeying an order to stop in a timely matter (and I'm not saying that happened with Friday's arrests), there's no reason to knock them off their bikes. I'm fairly sure APD has a policy regarding officers in pursuit of a fleeing vehicle, and I'm sure ramming their vehicle has to be the last resort! So instructions to officers on avoiding physicality in stopping cyclists is a must.
4) Once we have assurance of positive steps by APD in addressing the above, I'm sure the bicycling community would be happy to at least try to "self police" and educate riders on these issues.
I've added Eileen Schaubert to this thread, as she's been key in working with APD on a variety of issues.
P.S. Would someone do something about those idiots that proceed into an intersection in congested traffic and then end up stuck and blocking the intersection? Throw 'em in jail :)
Rob D'Amico
League of Bicycling Voters
President
512-627-1343
f: 512-682-9013
http://www.lobv.org
Man am I glad the bike community is populated with people more level-headed and well-spoken than I, like Rob D'Amico, Eileen Schaubert, Lane Wimberly, Tom Wald, Tommy Eden, and a host of others that'll go unmentioned for now. Thanks for everything, Rob!
i've read most of the pages and replies in this site and conclude that most of the rants are based purely on emotion and not homework. not to mention that the law is open to inturpretation (i hope my misspellings do not offend your vagina) by judges, not you. cops deal with the law on a daily basis, and even if they do not completely understand it to the letter, are better at convincing judges of what should be considered. i.e. a bicycle is a vehicle. reckless driving charge - wilful and wanton disregard for the safety of others while driving a vehicle. one red light is 'ran red light'. running continuous red lights for six blocks? perhaps a judge could be convinced that a class 'b' charge for reckless driving should be considered for simply riding with the group.
you guys act you should get to vote on your own fine or punishment, that is if you even acknowledge the fact that a law was broken. a ticket as a last resort? are you going to abide by the law if the cops "ask" you nicely first, or give you a written warning? of course not.
They should be serving us, not the other way around. So many seem to forget that.
go fuck yourself.
I do think tickets are fair dinkum. Its what happens when you drive a car and break a traffic law, and it should be what happens when you are on a bike and you break a traffic law. That said I think some states have more logic as far as treating stop signs as yields when on a bicycle and what not. But the law is the law.
However, tackling someone on a bike just for participating in a specific ride regardless of any violation (in this case CM) just so you can arrest someone to say you did something, lock them in jail for 3 days damned near refusing any attempt for them to get out on bail. That is abuse of power. That is a draconian tactic. That will NOT be tolerated.
As the guy that wrote the letter said:
"I envision lawsuits, OPM complaints, videographers chronicling APD behavior, and unfortunately, a more aggressive attitude from CM participants to block traffic intentionally as a result of continuing arrests. When you feel like it's a war out there, you act like a soldier."
This is the fact of the matter. There WILL be lawsuits, wasted court time (as most of the cases WILL be thrown out,) and more hostility towards cars. Believe it or not the last CM was actually very generous towards drivers, actually letting several through, considering its reputation. However, this wont remain the case if the police continue these tactics. It wont be me blocking cars, but I promise you that more people will.
And the fact of the matter is would you rather have the courts tied up over bicycle tickets or murderers and rapists?
In theory, the police were stopping people because they were obstructing traffic. The claimed crime is more serious than most traffic violations -- it's the same level as a DWI. The police don't ticket for class B misdemeanors -- they arrest. It's not really reasonable to take a statute designed to be used against protestors who totally block a building and such after being ordered to leave and instead use it against somebody who stops for a few seconds in traffic, but that's the strategy the police have chosen. They probably think the arrests are an added incentive to stop the rides, rather than just ticketing for red light running?
(Also, it's worth noting that most people convicted of this crime didn't actually commit it -- instead, it's usually the result of a DWI charge plea-bargained down to a lesser charge (It's the same level of offense, but the penalties are smaller.) I wonder if that generally tells somebody who finds it on your record `oh, he got out of a DWI' ?)
In the case of Richard, it sounds like Richard was holding his hand up to traffic (that was already at a red light?) so he didn't stop anybody, and even if he did, he had what ought to be a perfectly valid reason to do so.
To a cop specifically told to look for people blocking traffic, perhaps he looked like a juicy target. Perhaps the cop saw that there was a red light, perhaps he saw somebody had fallen -- perhaps not. (And if he did, but arrested anyways, shame on him. Unfortunately, the law won't penalize him for that, and he knows it. `You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.')
Rob put it well. Do the police immediately ram the car of a suspected drunk driver to make sure it can't leave? (both are class B misdemeanors, after all.) Bikes may be faster than cops on foot -- but the cop can probably sprint faster than the cyclist can get up to speed. And really, don't the police have considerable experience with people who try to evade them, and weren't there cops in cars and on bikes available to run down anybody who actually ran?
This `tackle them immediately' thing has got to stop. People get hurt, sometimes seriously. And when it's caught on camera, it shows up on the news, cities get sued, etc.
As for how long Richard was kept in jail, his inability to get help -- that's not the fault of the police. That's the jail and the courts. Still reprehensible, but the fault of different people.
I stand corrected on the issues I was wrong about.
I have never been arrested myself and therefore have a limited understanding of how that whole system of things works as far as cops/jail/courts go.
But what I was getting at is if they continue to use overly aggressive tactics it will only lead to more backlash. That is just what happens when people are targeted, whether its right or wrong.
I didn't see anything wrong about your post. I even agree with just about all of it.
yeah, we as a society oughtta have some say about how harshly "criminals" should be treated. did you read the post? You must not have read your own, 'cause it's rife with typos or at least very poor grammar. You=good writist. I don't abide by lots of laws, whether I hope a cop asks me nicely or not (usually not-they've mostly EARNED THEIR SHITTY REPUTATION.) (JEEZ)
your lack of common sense and good judgment will bring us closer together. if only you knew.
Attack people's ideas, not their occasional spelling and grammar errors.
The `Proper Grammar and Spelling' forums are over there ------>
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As any decent human being knows, bicycles are the pinnacle of humanity when it comes to transportation.
Critical Mass is one venue where some people put themselves
in numbers out on the streets to remind Society that they should stop sending the neighbors' kids to war to fill the tanks of their cars.
Police personnel ought to be helping the bicyclists to ride their gospel in safety; instead they have been obstructing the delivery of the message.
The only possible solution for us is to invite more and more bicyclists to the ride; it will be a moment when they won't be able to beat more people.
For some reason, methinks is that the cops are in CYA mode…(that ASS being THEIRS). Last thing (I think) they want to see is some cyclist in the intersection get hit by a car that doesn’t see said cyclist in the intersection. Then to have lawsuits and “hey where are the cops downtown when they need to be keeping a good flow to the traffic, yada, yada?”
Maybe I’m missing the whole point of this particular situation but I feel like they are trying to simply “police”…and by that, be as pesky and “let this Richard guy be the example of who NOT to be” so we can get scared away from expressing our rights to the roads. I honestly don’t think they give a damn about the whole tackling someone/making sure people are okay/finding out the actual situation before an arrest. Didn’t Officer what’shisface say he felt intimidated by all the cyclists around him anyways? So maybe his rational thought was to just ‘remedy’ the situation with an arrest as quickly as possible.
Hmmm, America’s justice system at its finest.
Hopefully I make it to the next CM…I need to see what all the hoopla is about. Perhaps that’s why I stick to the evening/late rides more anyhow…nobody bugs us other than the occasional drunks honking at us and (usually) encouraging us to ride and take the road. Never really have had any issues then, but then again, most everyone is already at home, making us not as visible to the community like CM does.
-Jessica
bike nerd fo' life, yo
well said. The po-po are unfortunately pre-programmed comsumers just like (moreso than?) the rest of the majority of the robots. New Mustang=badass+sex. Bicycle=opposite. (to them. To me, and hopefully you- bikes and their pilots are fuckin' sexy, if you're tuned in...Cars ARE cages-just not any kind of sexy cage). Cracks me up to see tatted "rebel" types in toughed-out late model crap "rebelling", sitting in traffic, in line behind some minivan, in front of some
status-mobile, waiting for the light to tell 'em it's okay to go. REBELS! OK, I'm drinky. time for bed. See ya'll tomorrow nite on the social ride.
Every experience I have had with APD has been, in my opinion, centered around money, not safety. My first ticket, I waited through a couple rounds of lights. Being late already and no one around, I ran it. An officer saw me, pulled me over right next to people drinking in public at 11:00a.m. I guess he figured they wouldn't be able to pay the ticket so I became the next logical target. All they want is your money.